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Thread: Iceni Cycles - Reply to Responses

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    Default Iceni Cycles - Reply to Responses

    Thank you for your insightful feedback, very useful as ‘freetechnical consultancy’.
    I have listed the points made as I understand them andprovided some response.
    Before I start I need to state our intention towards the Pedicabindustry and the Pedicab Forum. The ‘CarryTrike’ was not designed for the Pedicab market and was designed with families,school run and shopping in mind, also holiday park, cycle clubs, private hire ‘weddings’ etc. The idea that we could compete with the MAXpro / Mainstreets / CyclesMaximus type Pedicab was not our intention as these vehicles are wellestablished and the market fairly saturated. However our trike may appeal tosome operators due to its small size, light weight and the fact that it is roadlegal in motor assist form at 60kg.
    I came to the Pedicab Forum because your experience intrikes is second to none and I respect your opinions. The tough streets ofLondon and New York must be one of the hardest environments to use a trike andprove its design.
    1. Rear facing seats, running off at lights,getting out drunk falling on face, stolen luggage, pain in neck trying to lookforward. All true but not designed asPedicab so not an issue for us. Putting the seat facing forward changes thechassis radically and adds weight and length to vehicle. We have allowed for 2passengers not 3 and our design is dual purpose in that you can remove seatsand transform trike into a roomy cargo vehicle, 2 bikes in one. 250kg load orthree passengers, long downhill braking boils the hydraulic fluid and kills thebrakes, unbelievably scary and dangerous (I have personal experience), hence wehave cut rated load for safety. We use Magura Big same as MAXpro and newMaximus.
    2. Rain wraps, again not aimed at Pedicab so not aconcern for us though chariot rail can accommodate a wagon style clear PVCcover and may be future option.
    3. Front axle allows us to lower floor for improvedcentre of gravity and removes heavy loading so axle diameter can be reduced andweight cut. We had loads of experience with Maximus axles, premature failuredue to fatigue and they grew over the years in cost and complexity, the entirecargo weight and frame flexing passes through the axle so they had to be bombproof. Front axle only transmits torque and takes no cargo load. They are 20mmplated steel, not painted and have beenproven in the field for over 10 years. The axles and differential are popular offthe shelf products and not custom made.
    4. Alloy drop outs to axle bearings are for chaintensioning and fixed with 8mm nylock, though take on board your comments and mayremove and replace with fixed bearing mounts and proprietary chain tensioner soeasier to assemble and negate any problem with bolts coming loose etc andsimplify user maintenance.
    5. Front axle drive, if driven into post coulddamage chassis at mounting point of axle thus ruining transmission etc. True,but again not really designed for the Pedicab market and don’t expect owners tobe in the sort of environment where this can happen. Frame is very strong atthis point so you would have to hit very hard.
    6. The axles are easy to slide out once chain guardremoved and bearings released, this allows differential to drop into your handfor replacement of cassette.
    7. Chain oil on discs, Harley Davidson ran acombined sprocket and brake disc with no significant problems. Oil is flungalong the direction of chain travel, due to its viscosity and sticky naturevery little travels at 90 deg to the chain and we have had no indication of oilgetting on discs after 1 year of testing. Can fit transparent plasticprotection/splatter guard between rotor and sprocket without much hastle.
    8. Poor chassis design, tube welded to box sectionwill not take load. Well of course we have done more than that. Fabricator whodesigned chassis built over 700 Cycles Maximus trikes, several Ducati TT racewinner’s and owns Curtis Motorcycles. I accept your interpretation as thephotographs do not show the interconnections of the entire frame, would need topublish a naked frame shot for you to get the big picture. The entire rear sub frame is semi-stressedand load bearing is distributed over every tube, rear stub axles mounted on40mm box triangulated back to 40mm transverse beam & ladder chassis on 3points. Front cycle frame connected torear sub frame on two x 1 ¾” T45 aircraft steel tubes and 2 x 1” triangulatedside/laterally loaded struts back to a 1¾” T45 interconnect tube. We have tested and its incredibly strong consideringit weighs less than 20kg and carry’s all the cycle components as well as thecargo. There is no modular sub chassis connected to trike via rubbers whichadds weight and essentially doubles up the metal used. Anyway proof of thepudding is in the eating. The original Maximus chassis had loads of problemswhere the front and rear chassis triangles met, 4mm over plating and complexlaser cut gussets and brazing added a lot of cost and weight. The new Maximuschassis design has also moved away from this complex single interconnection point.
    9. Weak wheels and tiny spokes. We use the same wheels and spokes as MAXpro,HALO Combat SAS 38mm wide double wall downhill competition mountain bike rims,48 spoke all 13 gauge stainless steel. Maximus does not use 4mm spokes but 36 x12 gauge, I know ‘cause I built them. The original Maximus moped rims arerubbish, cheap thin single wall steel, they damage easily. Later Maximus customupgrade wheels are massive alloy motorcycle rims supplied by Central Wheel orMorad and weigh a ton, I use them on my 36v 8kW off road custom special.
    10. Overpriced, MAX pro cheaper. It costs what it costs, we are not intendingto work for years and have nothing to show for it. Poor Maximus ceased tradingafter 800 trikes made due to having made a big fat loss, we all lost our jobs. We simply can’t compete on price when itcomes to Eastern Europe or Asia. UK has all these business overheads andemployment laws like, pensions, minimum wage, health and safety, qualityassurance, legal certification, business rates, product and public liabilityinsurance, bank charges, corporation taxes, rent, utility bills, etc etc. I won’t go on as it winds me up, everyonewants a slice of the pie, there’s never anything left for the grafters of thisWorld.

    Please feel free to respond but I don’twant to get drawn into a long exchange if that’s OK, if you have anythingencouraging to say I would appreciate it.

    PS problems with loading website, you mayneed to clear your cache or web loading history, we have changed the hostserver in last few days.

    Kind regards to you all, respect what you dofor a living, a tough industry with pressure on all sides. AdamRead - Iceni Cycles Limited.

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    TikkiTikki (02-12-2015)

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    ...wait. This is a pedicab that isn't really recommended for pedicabing? I'm confused.

    Wedding guests weigh the same as members of the general public. I can also assure you that brides expect rain-covers. Last thing she wants is a soggy dress.

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    tdayuk (10-01-2016)

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    Great response Adam, best of luck with it

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    Default Warm welcome from MAXPRO Pedicabs

    Quote Originally Posted by Read Adam View Post
    10. Overpriced, MAX pro cheaper. It costs what it costs, we are not intendingto work for years and have nothing to show for it. Poor Maximus ceased tradingafter 800 trikes made due to having made a big fat loss, we all lost our jobs. We simply can’t compete on price when itcomes to Eastern Europe or Asia. UK has all these business overheads andemployment laws like, pensions, minimum wage, health and safety, qualityassurance, legal certification, business rates, product and public liabilityinsurance, bank charges, corporation taxes, rent, utility bills, etc etc. I won’t go on as it winds me up, everyonewants a slice of the pie, there’s never anything left for the grafters of thisWorld.
    AdamRead - Iceni Cycles Limited.

    Adam,

    I'm Andrew (MD of Maxpro Pedicabs) and I would like to welcome you to this forum. I won't be making any comments regarding your product as I don't feel it's really appropriate. I'm really pleased that there is another trike manufacturer on this forum. This industry is really small and most of us know each other here. There are only few things I would like to kindly clarify from your post. You obviously made a lot of comparisons of your trikes to our Maxpro trikes and the older CM trikes. Yes most of us use similar components and most of us try to do our best to get a pie in this industry. You compared us and put us slightly in the same bag with Asian trike makers explaining that you can't compete on price when it comes to Eastern Europe or Asia and I kind of get a feeling that you partially blame us for causing bankruptcy of Cycles Maximus because we are cheaper. Well I must emphasize on this here. First of all Maxpro did not affect CM financial position in any way because at the time when CM was all flashing in RED on its accounts and heading for bankruptcy Maxpro was making 20 pedicabs per year. Surely that could not cause CM to go and flash in RED. It took us about 5 years to gain reputation for a reputable and decent trike manufacturer. Frankly Adam, CM was badly managed and as a #1 company in the industry CM made a lot of serious mistakes which I won't talk about here.

    Secondly, yes Adam we are cheaper then CM or Iceni but we are also quoted for being very expensive because there will always be a cheaper products from the far east. We are also struggle with this and Turkish rip off copies of our product nearly made our business being ceased. So we are kind of all on the same boat.

    Thridly Adam, Maxpro trikes are made in Poland indeed which is called by some on this forum as a country of Soviet Satellite union. Poland is a cheaper country in terms of labour cost comparing to the UK but I must emphasize that labour cost counts now to less then 20% of total production cost of our vehicles. Please don't forget that Poland is a member of the EU now for 11 years now. We also pay business rates here, we also pay pensions here and national insurance which currently minimum monthly cost of that is £200 per employee per month + wages. We also pay product liability insurance. We also obliged to have a certification on our trikes (BTW we already passed TUV Rheinland and EU homologation which was very very expensive). We also pay bank charges, utlity bills, our employees also pay personal income tax and as a company also must pay Corporation Income Tax etc etc. We are all on the same boat now Adam.

    Last chapter. How do we do it that we are cheaper but maintain highest quality products? Turkish copies made a very difficult times for us. We then decided that to fight this w emust make loads of changes and automate our production in order to survive. We make now 90% of our components in house, made by us, we do not sub contract, we have automated most of the processes using advanced cnc machinery. BTW meet Slash (the Pal sitting in the back behind the EcoTaxi). Advanced machining centre operated by Japanese FANUC controls. It's just one of the fella's we use to keep our costs down and ensure our production is consistent and quality being second to none.


    So even though you did put us into one bag with Asian makers I just want to let you know I'm not offended but had to clarify. We wish you all the best in this business, hope to drink a pint with you guys one day, who knows maybe at one of the trade shows. if you ever come to Euro Bike Show in Friedrishafen feel free to pop in and ask for Andrew and have a chat. Once again lads, good luck
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    tdayuk (10-01-2016)

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    Great response Andrew - Yendrek3 I do feel that the numbers of pedicab makers is not the issue, more what the market chooses to operate with but as in all industries, you get what you pay for So it's nice to see how ALL of the clones of your units have gone bust because of lack of initial investment in the product to make it so cheap and at the same time how the companies that operated them have also gone the same way


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